Even though the whole world is burning

CURATORS’ NOTE

We were not able to bring him here, but someone from among the many we had met through this open call sent us photographs of his brother’s long-awaited wedding. I don’t know why, but I had never forgotten this. Nor had I forgotten that he had never seen snow in his life. Perhaps, and because he wrote that it was the most beautiful wedding he had witnessed in his life, something in me wanted to remember the sincere conviction of a young man believing his brother’s happiness must be seen by many, that his own happiness must become part of a festival.

We began the work of forming this selection by asking what has brought us here – why we’re still here, and why we take others along. We didn’t know what we were looking for but when the pieces came together, the picture that was looking back at us could not help but direct us to presence and to contact.

We were drawn to and missed people. We needed our faith in contact restored. We needed to regain trust in meeting, trust in our effect on each other, and in what we still have and can still bring.

We favored work where we felt the photographer as human, as someone really engaging with people; less interested in projects maybe, but favoring for feelings, fragility and tenderness, in attempts to come close and repair.

We could not look away from all that was burning, we could not deny fear, but we needed to know that there are places where it is still safe. We needed to know where to bring each other after the fires.

We connected to work, connected to artists whom we felt were still listening to the unfolding of the stories they were telling, or were at least open to being asked again. The feeling of a certain belonging, to one’s own body, within one’s home, within one’s community, and the innocence of the craft, which very often might not be so trendy, drew us.

In a way these works introspect the world they reside in, the world of the things they can still touch; works which try to establish empathetic conversations around their relations, and tend to look after each other as some sort of utopian community.

Be it a tender personal work, or a poetic visual introspection into rapid urbanisation and loss of ethnic communities, loss of what was once held as true, the common thread has been the will to pause, reflect and converse. To be present long enough to feel, to come back, or to grieve the inability to do so.

look after each other

A conversation between Deb Choudhuri & Dennese Victoria

06:00, 24 July 2021, Metro Manila /

18:00, 23 July 2021, New York

 

 

Dennese Victoria

Deb Choudhuri

 

 

 

i actually don’t know how to begin this

 

Hi. How are you?

 

 

it’s morning for me, it’s 6 in the morning.

 

It’s really early.

 

 

it’s the opposite of new york time. actually maybe let’s turn off the video. so i can talk because i’m nervous.

 

Okay.

 

 

i wanted to first thank you for saying yes. because actually you don’t have to talk to me, and i guess there’s not much in it for you. so i wanted to thank you for that. but at the same time –

 

 

Wait, Dennese, I will try to just open the video because I think sometimes your voice just gets a bit cut off. So I can make sense of what you are saying then at least.

 

 

okay, sorry. sorry, i’ll turn on mine.

 

Yeah. I don’t know if your wifi connection is good, or mine is problematic, but yeah.

 

 

maybe mine is also bad.

 

Sometimes just the voice gets cuts off a little bit. But it’s okay, it should be good.

 

 

can you hear me now?

 

It’s alright.

 

 

i’m not really prepared.i’m not treating it as an interview. and i worry that it’s kind of like me going to the priest and confessing. but it is, kind of that – how do i want to begin?

 

 

You wanted to like ask me something?

 

 

yeah, no, i am going to ask. i’m just trying to begin.

 

 

Okay… No, that’s what I read in your e-mail also…

 

 

as you can i see i am anxious. but i was going to say earlier that from the beginning, you have always kind of answered me even if you didn’t have to. what i remember is that how i first found you was basically we shared the open call, and then i saw your instagram.

 

 

 

I think i couldn’t make it that day, I was working or something. The time difference was there so I couldn’t make it on that screening day. yeah, I remember.

 

 

 

no, no. i was actually thinking of before, during the application process. so the first time i opened your instagram is the first time that i saw your work. and then i think you were in kind of a crisis then.

 

and then i just kind of panicked because you were in trouble. and i just kind of wrote to you and you answered very kindly.

 

so that was before. way earlier before i would know that we would select your work. so for me at least that was how i met you.

 

and i guess what i wanted for this, and because you have actually written a lot about your work, and recently i’m surprised to see colour in your work, but i think now i wanted to talk to you as someone who showed your work, who believed in it, but also as someone who is scared by it.

 

i mean, i feel a lot because of it. and at the same time i kind of, as a curator and as someone who wrote all of those things about care, i kind of ran away, i feel. like i couldn’t continue to listen, i couldn’t continue to listen as much

 

 

 

Yeah it’s been a journey for me also in that way because, like you know, it’s not something that I had planned before or something that I had in mind that I want to work in this way or the other. It’s just how kind of life leads you to different situations and it took me a while to actually understand and be able to put or start to put things together or make sense of it. I don’t really, for the most part, i don’t always plan on how I am going to approach something, or things like that. But of course I am always fascinated by people who have like been through some experiences that kind of change their ways of looking at their own lives and in some way confronting several issues of their own life.

 

So I believe that it may be a part of me, but also a part of journeys of several other people who are part of this greater image of myself. So you know… it’s not just – but yeah of course the way it started and I still don’t think i can actually make sense of the loss that I have had in the past. I am trying to get over it and I am trying to find ways of not letting the past always kind of haunt me, but also it’s something that keeps me moving forward.

 

My belief and my hope in different people from different identities and different experiences themselves, that’s some sort of faith that keeps me moving…so yeah, there is that. That’s how it kind of like started.

 

 

 

sorry for being intense from the beginning. because i know that the work is not you, i mean it is part of you, but that you are like a larger than –

 

 

 

It is me in a way, like everything is about me. But I just don’t want to make that kind of a message that it is just me, or you know…It’s just how I have started. Like I look at life that way, and how and what that means to me.

 

Because I am sure that it’s not also possible that everyone that I photograph or every situation that I am in, cannot actually keep going forever you know… I cannot hold on to people forever. But photography is definitely an efficient tool to make some meaning out of what’s left in life actually…

 

And yeah there are many issues that are always…issues like this that basically relates to, either with death or some sort of addiction, that are always difficult to talk about. But also there are ways in which I feel all of us find ways to tell our stories through struggles. And as long as we do that, it’s fair… It’s all part of life and we just have to… As long as we listen to each other and are kind enough to accommodate each other, that’s only thing that matters for me.

 

 

 

i guess, i’m also, because, i guess i’m also not just remembering your work, but also the things you would sometimes post on instagram. and during that time, i was kind of thinking as the “curator” during that time, that for you, was i also that

“art world

 

?”

 

cause i was also writing to you before about how to me, you are actually successful already. and i think i remember just trying to convince you to kind of stay.

 

 

 

Hmmm…Yeah I know. I wouldn’t, like when I say that, of course I do go through like some emotional upsurges and downsides but eventually I am trying to look at the positive side too, you know. Like not to get too lost in some sort of cycle of things and it is important. Now I think eventually we all grow out of a certain pattern and cycle and it is important to keep growing and keep healing from within and I am trying to get there eventually.

 

 

 

Yeah. No, no because not to put you on the spot but i was also just wondering, what did you think like, was my responsibility?

 

 

Sorry i think I lost you

 

 

hello? can you hear me now?

 

 

Did you ask me something? can you repeat the question?

 

 

 

i think i’m just also asking like how to not make people – how to not leave people feeling used, you know? like is it just for a show?

 

because with work like yours, and with similar work, it’s just so intimate that it’s hard for me to separate it from seeing that person as a person, and not just a photographer.

 

and then i know i had that professional role but at the same time i was thinking of like, how do we – not just for you – how do we actually navigate that? because i don’t –

 

 

 

How do I do it? or in general?

 

 

 

or maybe what do you think? because i do think about it like, is just a show worth it? or how do we actually-

 

 

 

I think photography in itself is very difficult to – like condense so much of information or experience of a human being. That’s why we have film, and why we try to like gradually expand our horizons towards that way. But definitely, I look at everything in terms of multiplicities. So the more images we have, it is something like a way to also make sense of where we are headed to. This is something that lot of people have told me, like people who I respect and love. You know, it’s like, growing like a tree, as they say.

 

It’s definitely something that’s very important for all of us. And I think after a point, art cannot exist just in a bubble, and we just have to find people who react and people who kind of like, you know at some level, we connect at a wavelength, right? So we have to always keep searching, for places and people who can connect to each other, and disseminate more of our art and our experience. So, that is just how it is.

 

I mean like, for example I always try to work with people who are, I would say, like you know, someone who tries to do different things. Like for example when you started curating this. It’s not really about how rigid things are, but how fluid it can be.

 

Like how different forms of shape all of our works together can take in, particularly in Angkor. Because it was an open call also, we saw like so many different kinds of work. It’s not just personal, but it was also everything. So I think that is very powerful in itself.

 

 

 

i’m a bit of at a loss for words. cause i was, i don’t know, you seem so lighter than i imagined. i was really worried for you. yeah. so now i’m kind of like,

how do i do this?

 

i imagined something else. but it’s nice this way, you know?

 

 

 

There are some things which are hard and difficult for me to talk about, so I am trying to talk about more lighter things and ways like we can look at each other’s work and stuff like that.

 

 

 

but don’t you want to –

 

 

 

But of course, there have been experiences that I would say have been hard on me. Like of late, I do accept the fact that I sometimes do go through extreme emotional changes and that is something that I am working on. I guess we are all working on something or the other.

 

 

yeah, like how i disappear.

 

 

 

It does affect things but I try to really not project that onto other people, so sometimes I feel like it’s all on me and I just have to get through it.  But it’s just like how sometimes situations and circumstances that define a particular state of my mind, so yeah.

 

 

 

for me at least, i know it’s not for everyone but, it’s so intimate, these kinds of works and it’s like, once you know this thing about this person, it’s hard to not see it.

 

it’s hard to distance yourself from it. and like you write, people give a part of themselves to you.

 

and like i wrote to you, i just wanted to face you, you know? that’s why i just wanted to call. there’s not much – because i feel like your work, how you write, i understand it and there’s not much to ask. but i just wanted to face you, and not feel like i just ran away. and that i just made this show and felt cool.

 

i also wanted to say that actually i applied for a grant which would have supposedly – because when i looked at 300 people’s work, i just saw something, i just saw so much that i liked.

 

and then i wanted to make this book where i’d take, i’d re-invite all 24 of you, just a single image from all of you, and then take more from the open call, from the ones we didn’t select before, and then just bring them together.

 

but i didn’t get selected, and i was so sad about it. i wanted to bring you guys something real, you know?

 

 

 

But I think it’s just a process sometimes. That’s always something that I also kind of think about, how there are grants and competitions, and how much do they kind of determine your work as an artist, or who is it that really defines who you are as an artist. But it’s just a process of helping you, and kind of providing some external encouragement. But even if someone does not make it through something doesn’t mean that the world is ending.

 

And it’s also like there is so much noise and there is so much networking and all these things are involved. I feel or maybe I used to feel that the kind of situations and backgrounds that I come from, it’s like I always used to think that I am a loner, or that the stroll is pretty lonely for me, but now I have started to kind of think the other way.

 

That if you want to look for help, there will be people who will at least hold your hand. Maybe it’s not getting a big grant or something but it’s just a little push or just a way to hold someone’s hand and just show some path, of where you are, and who you are, and what you can do with your life.

 

It’s not just to be limited by getting a grant, and not getting a grant, or winning an award, or not winning an award, but something more, something more personal.

 

 

 

You did get a grant recently, no?

 

 

Oh! I was nominated for that grant but it did not happen, which is kind of sad because of covid and things got postponed. But yeah, it;s like something that I have been recently – that I am trying to be more active in and trying to figure out opportunities to kind of keep pushing and keep pursuing work. It’s fairly recent…I am starting to understand that it is important also to reach out to people and maybe at least ask for some help or something like that. It’s important and I am still figuring it out. But maybe, eventually we all get somewhere…

 

 

 

definitely. and yet no, because i was so happy to see your name there.

 

 

Yeah… That kind of was a booster.

 

 

 

because i thought that it was from home. it would be something from your home coming to you. but now i’m sad to hear it didn’t happen.

(edit: In July 2021, during the time that we spoke, the grant had been halted, but now, in October 2021, the nominees are waiting for the final results to be announced)

 

 

i think i called you too late. you seem lighter. i mention it and i am relieved because you know, years ago i cared for a friend who was suffering and needed to be in the psych ward. some of us were taking care of her but it was really intense to constantly need to be the strong one. i stayed with her through that but when she got out, i kind of ended the friendship because i couldn’t do it anymore. it was hard but i really had nothing left to give. i was left with all of my own needs unminded.

 

but even now when i think about it and her, why do I write all of these things about care and about looking after each other… when in my daily life, my relationships are suffering? why do I need more people? because essentially I did look for more people to care for in this curation when I didn’t do so well at that in my real life. i think I’m just thinking of that often.

 

 

 

I think so too. Perhaps you know, we are humans and we don’t really understand each other’s worth unless we actually lose someone and then we start understanding the importance. Because sometimes I feel, it might be like a weird feeling, but that if someone was alive then maybe I wouldn’t have valued that, and it would have led me to something else than where I am right now. I mean these are just thoughts.

 

But I have met people who have lost, I mean, we all lose people in our lives. Eventually I am trying to come to terms with this fact that, it is inevitable. Loss is something that, it’s just how each one of us kind of deals with it, and how each one of us kind of reacts to it that is different. And we just have to have that courage to not give up. But saying this is much easier, you know. Living it is very different.

 

 

 

but there are moments sometimes… i feel there are moments where you feel very, very close to loved. to being loved properly.

 

 

 

Yeah, definitely. Even if it’s short-lived moments. Like you sharing your story with someone, and listening to their stories, or even more intimate encounters whatever that is. Yeah, there are those moments. And I am not saying that everyone will last forever. Even in my life, I know that. Maybe I might have photographed someone who is not present physically in the same city, or in the same location anymore. But we are in touch and we do talk. The levels of intimacy keep changing, these levels of relationship, but at some point the friendship still remains. And I think that friendship, that solidarity really makes a difference in each other’s lives. That’s why we need to care more about each other. Even if we are kind of like writing letters like the way, we do sometimes. I try to do that even with people I have photographed. That is important for me at least.

 

 

 

I just wanted to share that, looking at your work, how much I feel that you stayed with them, how much you stayed with the people in the photographs, that you shared your presence with them.

 

 

 

I think that too also has kind of different experience because I would not say that while I try to photograph and know everyone over time it;s not always possible from a more logistical point of view. So, when I first did this I was actually not staying in the city, I was going to the school upstate but I didn’t study photography. It’s a whole different story I had a scholarship to study something else but anyway, I used to make trips to different parts of America. Mostly like parts in Ohio, some parts in Pennsylvania, some parts in New York. I used to actually couch surf but also like in a way that would be putting myself in a position of anonymity. Because I would not have met that person before, you know? And it was sometimes risky but it was like a game, I feel. It was in the earlier days of 2017 to 2018, and a little bit of 2019 that I kind of did that way. So, that was the intitial way how I started this.

 

Over time some relationships developed and I was able to get deeper into trying to understand some people. It has been a mix of knowing them over time and some people more spontaneously because I know I would not be meeting them again. But whatever the moments where I tried to give it my everything to understand their lives.

 

 

 

No that’s what I actually meant. Not really in terms of time duration. But in bearing a moment. To me, what comes across more is how they surrendered themselves to you. You could just see that in that moment they also needed what you brought.

 

I just wanted to say also that it’s so nice to listen to you. I mean you write so well and even if I do like words so much, a lot can be lost or misread without the voice. And though I’m more articulate in writing, recently I’ve also been enjoying letting myself not really know the right thing to say, or the right thing to ask.

 

 

 

Wait, I think there is something wrong. I missed what you said.

 

 

 

Are you okay? I don’t have much questions left. I’m sorry I’m being bad at this. I think I really just wanted to talk about how difficult it actually is to stay in touch. Not just in the physical sense, but that you don’t know how you’ll find a person the next time you see them. And you wrote about it too, how some stay, some fade away. And I problematise this a lot. I’m not succeeding at it.

 

 

 

Yeah it’s something that I wrote in that statement which I sent to you. It was literal, but also the very fact that it is also the impossibility of holding on to certain things in life. That’s a more existential level maybe. But yeah, it had both these meanings, when I said that, some stay and some fade away, it’s basically that. As much as you try, people are also like sand you know.

 

 

 

the way you and I are

 

 

 

Thats true….sometimes your words break down, because of my connection, I think. No, it’s like we are half way across the world from both parts.

 

 

 

maybe I’ll ask the last question now. thank you for bearing with me. i know I’m not really at my best right now. but, I really do wanted to ask why you think we ask people to look.

 

 

 

Sorry, did you say why we ask people to look?

 

 

yeah

 

 

Oh my god that’s the most difficult question for the last

 

 

 

i mean we do either push or run away from people but then we also come back with our hands full and essentially kind of say, hey, look what i have,

look what i’ve made.

 

 

 

 

I feel this totally..I think that’s just also like one of the things that we both resonate on, this very fact. I think I have also talked about this in the past to you. As much as we try to be independent, we know that we are all part of the same kind of structures, without which we cannot survive. Be it as artists, be it as human beings.

 

That is pretty much why we still need that way to kind of push people to look at our work in that way. And we are helpless, this is perhaps one of the greatest conflicts that I always go through. Even now I am not really a person who would send work to people or stuff like that. I barely do that. It’s just now, over time, I am realising that you have to say yes to some of the situations where people have to kind of look at your work and say things about it. Good or bad doesn’t matter, you have to get people to talk.

 

But I think as long as we are just being sincere and giving our everything to whatever we feel the most about. I think that is most important for me. Art for me also is something that should be about this certain sense of collaboration, this certain sense of belonging towards each other.

 

And to do that it’s not necessary that we always have to like ask big people or institutions. But more like start things at an individual level, what we are doing toward each other? And can we collaborate with each other? Which is more important for me. And I am trying to do that more. Here also. It’s not just people who are from great backgrounds or something. That is one way we can stay free but eventually we are all being conditioned by the same systems.

 

 

 

actually I wasn’t even thinking of systems or institutions. i was just thinking of another person. Like for example, your work, there’s so much pain, even if there’s so much love also. And then I’m thinking of that impulse, that impulse or need to tell someone,

i’m in pain

 

.

 

 

 

Yeah. That I do in a sense that I think it’s more about writing or sharing with people you love. And sometimes you just do it out of an impulse. Like you want someone to react to your life, or to your art in some way. And you want that person to be part of your journey.

 

Like taking out all these institutions or systems, or whatever it is, but just at an individual level, just wanting someone to be a part of your journey. It is difficult but it has to be done also.

 

 

 

and it’s about wanting to exist as well, to see yourself existing.

 

 

Probably, yeah, that’s true.

 

 

sorry for my weird questions

 

 

 

You can ask as many questions… I don’t think I am very good at it… It depends, sometimes I try to be precise, but sometimes I deviate a lot. In our mediums of exchange of conversation, it’s also very limited rather than when we meet face to face, there is a different level of interaction that can happen. And here we are bounded by wi-fi connection, headphones, speakers…. that may or may not work always. So I try to condense as much as I can, for your questions.

 

 

 

no I’m also a bit apologetic for being intrusive. I don’t have anything much left to ask actually. Just if you wanted to say something more, I was actually interested about what do you think care would look like, or should look like in the art world?

 

 

 

I think that’s a very difficult question…I don’t think like I would have a precise… like I said if you are thinking about the art world or something. That’s what you meant right, care in the art world?

 

 

yeah

 

 

 

I recently I remember I shared this interview with you also, the one where I collaborated with a writer from here. She is a trans writer. What I am trying to kind of go for is the fact that I am trying to build this kind of collaborative practice with people. Where it’s not just really about my photographs, or it’s not just about their words, but it’s more about an exchange. Because I think this would be like the greatest way of changing for the better. And caring for each other is how and when we share our experiences through whatever mediums we feel comfortable in. So when images and words or images and videos, moving images, still images, they kind of like coalesce together, connect together from different perspectives and points of view, it can really give rise to something else, that we have seen even in Angkor or just in general.

 

And that for me is care, when we kind of look after each other in the art world without giving into so much of the noise or the logic of individual publications or exhibitions or whatever. Though that is important too, because we are in this world together, and there is no way out, unfortunately at this point. But we have to think about situations that are more micro level actually. Think about each other and where we are coming from our individual experiences. Only then we can give rise to something more. I think at this point especially when it comes to moving image or photography it’s no longer just some sort of an individual effort like writing with words, where you can just sit back at your home and write stuff. Which is also great. But with photography and writing when it combines together it really gives rise to something else. Because it’s a different story that we tell.

 

Care is very difficult while it should be something that we should have done a long time ago, we only realise it after we lose people and especially in the light of the pandemic and whatever has happened. Now we realise that we need to look after each other, you know. But this should have been a very basic human trait. It’s not something that rises suddenly. It should have always been there especially in the art world. But we did find it lacking, and I believe that eventually we will be getting better and growing together.

 

 

 

i just wanted to share, you know how I was telling you about the book idea that I had? It was called

Look after each other

 

.

 

 

 

It will happen. I remember recently a friend of mine from here. He is much younger. I am 28 right now, he is just 23 -24. He was kind of interested in doing this interview. I think that was for his school photography project. Where he was actually selecting works but pairing it with the “why’s” and “how’s” of why people have been photographing. He also did a zoom session with me. Then his mother fell sick and stuff. But that’s why I kind of supported him, I try to support people like me, where we are trying to do things. Both as a collaborative practice so we can always like look out for each other no matter how difficult life is.

 

 

 

i wanted to share something that I recently heard. I was watching this show and there was a mother talking to her daughter and she was saying that each person’s kindness is handmade, and that because of that it’s easy to misunderstand, or be thought of as fake. she also said kindness is your heart trying to grow.

 

 

 

I like this idea also. Sometimes you know like if you look at movie stills, not moving images, certain moments are so interesting. I don’t exactly recall who did it, but there was a friend from back home who kind of used to make montages of different movie stills with connecting quotes like the subtitles that you have in english. But it also kind of creates a story of someone’s life and that is also very interesting because when you look at movie stills you will find those emotions are frozen in time. So it’s a very interesting way to talk about stories and life. And I think recently I looked at this photographer’s work which I think he is from Philippines, but I forgot his name.

 

 

 

geloy

 

?

 

 

 

Yeah! He has been doing it with the archives, and then mixing up with the texts of people who have gone through situations. I feel that is so powerful.

 

 

 

i didn’t have a camera and he gave me his camera. so I am really grateful to him.

 

 

 

Yeah, he is amazing. And that kind of made me feel you know? I feel that work is something that gives hope. For me when I look at those words that people write, especially on this mysterious archival images, I realise that it’s not just me or you, who are just suffering. A lot of people are and they are in pain. And this pain needs to be addressed. And the more we address it we also kind of relieve ourselves from it. And we kind of grow also from there.

 

 

 

or even just to acknowledge it by saying, I believe in you. By saying you believe the person.

 

 

 

Yeah… exactly.

 

 

 

but the challenge is to slow down

 

 

 

That is also something that bothers me. If you look at Instagram or just in general, people are always like what new project or what new work are you doing? This and that.

 

 

 

it has become kind of like a CV thing. It used to be more personal.

 

 

 

Yeah… I sometimes kind of joke to my friends here it’s becoming more like Amazon production factory or something where we keep on producing work. It’s alright to take your time. Right now I have to survive here.

 

I was literally in a very bad situation for like a couple of months. So I took up like a service kind of basic pay job. And I also get time to photograph but not maybe in the same logic that I used to in the past. But this is just for this time. The idea is to not think so much and just be open toward experiences in life. It’s not always that I have to get to this show or something.

 

 

 

it’s better I think…because then whatever you’ll make next, it’ll come from life. It won’t just be a project.

 

 

 

That is something that some people have told me, you know in the end perhaps life is just one project in itself and you always have these different chapters in it. Of course we have like different commitments, if you are supposed to cover a protest, or war or a fight, that is also part of our lives. But in the end it’s just one. It’s just how we look at it and how we decide to add meaning to it.

 

 

 

yeah… and it’ll also show what you paid attention to

 

 

 

We all are just trying to find ways to survive, basically. I think there would not have been any sort of desire within us to actually pursue and create if there was no longer this tension. This fight to survive and struggle. So it’s all good… If I start to think about it this way, it’s all good.

 

 

 

thank you for speaking to me, for struggling with me. i am not very professional.

 

 

Even I am not very professional.

 

 

no you’ve been so much better. I feel a bit embarrassed for being too personal.

 

 

 

No, I like people who are more personal other than just touching the surface of things you know. But I hope that I have been able to add meaning to your efforts. I think I forgot to ask you what exactly was your idea with these interviews and things that you wanted to do?

 

 

 

it’s because Angkor is trying to post the work again online. I didn’t want to just release it as the same thing.

 

 

 

Yeah. That makes complete sense.

 

 

 

and also because I didn’t want to just run away from everyone. I wanted to find a way to return somehow. To not just write all of those things about care and not do the difficult part of caring, which is being present and returning, finding a way to stay in touch.

 

 

 

This is something that, when I look at your work you have very touching, moving image pieces. You know like moving – From the past I was looking, I am really fascinated by the moving image. Perhaps it’s also like some sort of a fear in me that I am not venturing into that territory. But maybe eventually I will. It’s just something that perhaps expands the horizons of how we can interpret our situations in life.

 

 

 

you have time. You can stay longer. As it was in the beginning, I’m convincing you to stay longer.

 

 

 

I feel it’s the most important thing to us which we do with a certain innocence. That’s all that matters. Doesn’t have to be some perfect embodiment or something or whatever. It’s just doing something with innocence and our own sincerity and clarity. Which I still don’t know where I am at that point in life but I am trying. We are all trying.

 

 

 

how do you make grant people remember to value innocence?

 

 

 

As long as we are doing something with our own honesty and I would say, like an extension of our own lives. That’s it. Everything else let the people decide whatever will happen or not happen.

 

 

 

it will be a loss if I didn’t ask what you want to do.

 

 

 

Wait. Did you ask what do you want to be?

 

 

well, maybe…I was asking like, what do you want to work on?

 

 

For my next move?

 

 

in general, or in life.

 

 

Oh! Generally. That a very difficult question.

 

 

sorry, I only have difficult questions

 

 

Yeah…I mean in that sense, is it on an existential level?

 

 

you can just see how much I don’t talk to people because these are the questions I have

 

 

 

I know… I understand because I wouldn’t have a specific answer to this. I mean I would say that I want to be a photographer or move into filmmaking, or make moving images, but that answer is also very predictable and easy… in that sense we will all become that eventually.

 

At a greater level if I think I would say that the immediate thing for me is to go past the situations of my past life. Go beyond it and try to look at the world in a more hopeful way. Because I think I am sometimes a bit cynical of situations around us given the fact that whatever we are going through. I always think about things like why do people do certain extreme steps because it’s so very personal for me whatever has happened. And I have done some stupid things also in the past. So I am trying to look at the world in a more positive way, that’s one thing. And more importantly I am shooting more colour….

 

If I think about it I would say just being open to life right now and trying to take just one day at a time. Keep surviving, keep fighting. Have new situations, encounters. Find new ways, try to find new forms of the language, that’s like, it. I would not say like I have some real long term goals but that’s pretty much it. Just being open.

 

 

 

thank you

 

 

This is like the most difficult question like what does life mean to you or something like that…

 

 

sorry… these are the things in my head.

 

 

This is what I like too. The ones that you can actually not answer. You don’t have a precise answer to these things. It’s like love, if you ask someone, what does love mean to you, different people will come up with different answers. But we still try in the end and that it’s that effort of reaching some point and getting lost.

 

 

you just try to come close

 

 

That’s true.

 

 

okay. i will leave you to your evening now.

 

 

And I will leave you to your morning. It’s really early there, 6 A.M?

 

 

it’s 7:30. thank you so much and it has been very lovely to talk to you.

 

 

Same here. You know we have been going through a lot of emails but we never talked.

 

 

i hope I didn’t bring too much of the dark side

 

 

No, no… I feel light now…

 

 

when you’re old and you are the one in the panel to decide, I hope you remember to value innocence.

 

 

I am in a panel? Oh my god! That’s a joke…

 

 

please select the nice guys, the soft ones.

 

 

Oh yeah. We could talk about that some other day.

 

 

thank you. goodbye

 

 

Yeah. Goodbye.